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You Won't Really Own Your Car
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- Opublikowany 7 mar 2023
- Linus and Luke talk legal and illegal car theft.
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- Nauka i technika
Komentarze • 621
We're turning off your A/C midsummer in Texas.
Literally putting your life in Ford's hands.
Second hand owner - Paperwork mistake - We're taking your car for non-payment.
@WhatWillYouFind yes. Thats what i meant. Its called "buying in good faith".
After paying 100% user must be able to remove that feature. Otherwise that will be rubbish cars.
Hard lol. Looks like I’m going to buy old metal with carburetors.
You think having ac off is life threatening?
I am sure this will be only Fords sold at Ford Dealerships using their financing, but if you go to your own bank for the loan then Ford is paid and this is no issue.
Car manufacturers will use "security concerns" as a means of disabling someone's vehicle and forcing them to upgrade to something newer. This approach already exists in the industrial controls segment, so it's just a matter of time before that mentality comes to vehicles as well
First party malware.
i mean apple already does this, until they get caught then come up with a better way to hide it.
Rent seeking behaviour is a cancer and it's slowly killing everything. Life is already fucking expensive when you're poor, by turning everything into a subscription service, it's only going to get worse.
Yes they will. I expect that buying a car in the future will be just a subscription plan. You get to pay a monthly fee indefinitely and you get a new car every few years. And if you stop paying, your car drives itself to the dealership.
Countdown to hackers stealing your car without ever getting in it.
already happening lawl. teslas are basically fre game at this point :D
you're so far behind lol
Countdown to Cyberpunk dystopia where corporations do things WAY worse than any hacker or thief ever would
@Bradley Whais Ford finances in-house, very often.
@FastJZS147the difference is the risk. Rent a center assumes all the risk in that transaction. When you buy a car, you pay for the car in full, with a loan from the bank. You take the risk. The car is the collateral. Ford should not have any input in repossession.
Cars peaked in the mid 2000s. The most technological thing I want in my current and future cars is bluetooth on the radio, Everything else I want to be mechanical or analog
Late 90s early 2000s imo.
@Americansnek yes I have a 2000 Toyota Hilux with a $30 head unit and the Bluetooth work better than my mom's 2014 BMW
Should technically be easy to swap out your head unit (radio) for a Bluetooth enabled one. I'm saving money to do it on my 2011 crown Vic lol
this is why i drive a 1999 land rover. literally rebuilt the engine in the alleyway over a couple of weekends (had to work inbetween)
I’d like a hybrid but I don’t want my car connected to the internet at all. My car doesn’t need anything from the internet.
I already have maps and entertainment on my phone, I’ll just plug it into the USB port.
While doing 70mph on the highway: "Ford servers will be undergoing scheduled maintenance shortly, please pull over to the side of the road and turn the vehicle off to avoid loss of acceleration, braking, and steering. This process should take less than 4 hours. Thank you"
Now that would be pure dystopia, where having low server ping means LESS chance of dying.
Can see this 🤣🤣🤣
Mercedes is looking to come out with features where they're not available until you pay for them even though they are already installed in the car. An example they gave were seat warmers. If you don't want to pay the extra fee for them then they just simply arrive disabled
It's cheaper for everyone to do it this way. The assembly line has less variations of products to build so they save some money, but they still need people paying for the option.
AMD, Intel, and Nvidia have all done this with GPUs and CPUs. I remember turning my AMD 6950 into a 6970 just by flashing the BIOS. Intel has sold quad cores that are locked to dual cores and you can buy an "upgrade".
Why does it matter if the car I ordered without seat warmers has them disabled?
Many companies already do it that way, and its not that bad. You still own the wiring and everything in your car. But the new thing is to have the seat heaters be a subscription plan. So that they will work for a month if you pay 10 bucks and then they will get deactivated again. Theoretically you still own all the hardware and could probably bypass the system by running wires straight from the battery through a switch to the seat heater.
Don’t BMW and Tesla already do that?
For years I was super excited about electric cars... But seeing how it's really a way for large corporations to just control and spy on more and more of your life, I'm going back to the Honda civic.
The tech is amazing. The tech abuse is not.
I would like to say I already saw this coming.
well, you can always convert it to a non-connected EV, really all cars should be isolated systems, you shouldn't have any tech that connects to the outside other than the key fob so you can unlock it at short distances
Unfortunately, these 'features' are not exclusive to electric. It isn't even significantly easier to do it in electrics.
From fuel injectors, to ignition and powered seats, it's all software driven, and all terminated the same.
@isaac10231 Computer engineer her.. no, they are not. What makes a car 'electric' is the energy source for driving. As long as the alternator and battery exist in a regular car or even one powered by steam, they can still spy on you with electronic subsystems, which they already do
“Tech abuse” is not a real concept - whatever can be done with technology to gain control and power will eventually be done by someone.
I've tried a car subscription from Volvo and they came to collect the car from inside my work garage while I was away without notice, not a pleasant surprise coming out during lunch to find it missing...
Please, just answer our questions dude
@Fiercesoulking in the US you dont own it until its paid off, so you have a lein on the title from the bank that gave you the loan. once its paid off THEN it cant be taken without a felony involed
I never get that in the US other countries it is a lot harder to take the car because you have an owner certificate like a house here and confiscation can only be done by officials.
That is through the Care by Volvo program. If you're in the US that would be your local dealerships fault for the lack of comms.
I used to not understand why some hacker/tech-savvy characters in movies love to use out-dated tech.
Now I'm starting to get it.
I've read so many reddit posts regarding dealerships being negligent and borderline abusive of their backdoor systems on customers' vehicles, that it's realy dystopian even til today. It's confusing how western law makes such of these legal
Not really. It's called lobbying. If you just keep throwing cash at politicians you can make most laws go away, either for yourself (ideally to get competitive advantage) or for the industry as a whole (see lobby groups). I don't know if the UK and Canada operate the same way.
I work in the automotive industry and we will get cars equipped with past time devices which car sellers can use to prevent car owners from being able to start their vehicle if they are behind on payments. We sometimes have them come in when the device dies so they cant start the car, or after the owner finishes paying off the vehicle they come in to have the device removed.
@JETWTF I don't think a little degraded functionality is going to help or motivate faster repayment from the people who are actually struggling to make their repayments. Linus raises an important point that incorrect seat positioning may be a safety hazard, so it should not be considered an optional feature with which to badger the debtor and motivate them to make their repayments.
That's pretty much all this is but more towards trying to get someone to make those payments again in a nicer way, seat controls gets shut off but you can still drive to work is better than the car just not starting. There will be errors ofcourse and some inconvenience but those will be better than the device decides it is done working or there was a clerical error which results in a non starting car and a missed day at work. If something goes wrong it is better to be able to deal with it after the day at work is done rather than instead of work.
When I bought my first nice car, I felt the same way. I found that I didn't want to be seen in it by family members cause I didn't want them to think I was flaunting it or whatever
As a person who doesn't have a nice car, I can't relate
i hope you are happy with the car Linus, my friends dad was part of making this car a reality.
What's to stop them from using that feature after you have finished paying off the car itself?
i like my old car where theres almost no technology, i think im going to be getting an even older car next
Good point about Tesla cars. One clarification, the removed feature was radar, not lidar.
In American it was a strange experience to have the doors autolock once you went over like 30mph.
In Australia the doors don't automatically lock. You do have central locking though.
I live in Germany and have a 2015 Mazda 3 which doesn't have this feature, but I once drove in a ~2002 Mercedes ML that automatically locked the doors above walking speed. So not country dependant, more like brand and vehicle dependant.
Depends on the car, not the country. I'm in Northern Ireland and my 2015 Volkswagen Golf and my parents' 2015 Vauxhall Insignia both have automatic locking when you go over 10mph, but on both cars it was off by default and had to be enabled in settings.
The auto locking thing isn't what Linus thinks it is at the start, it means the fact the Key remotely locks all doors, you'd have to go to each door individually with the manual key, like a 2000s Micra haha
@shellcool0wnsso that they can't lock themselves inside the car and refuse to get out?
@Seán TBH I'm not sure, thinking about it again Linus sounds right, but I personally don't see why disabling the locking when driving off would be a thing that people would see as a feature to lose to the point of making them want to not miss payments more, what I'm saying is if you can't pay for your car, turning off that feature wouldn't do anything, maybe it's just me but both of my cars don't even have that feature, disabling my remote locking key/central locking so I had to unlock each door manually with the key would make me Hella more want to continue payments, glad I own both my cars and their 2014 models without all this 24/7 connected big brother stuff 🤣🤣
But saying that I see what you mean it sounds more like what Linus said now, I getchu 😅
are you sure? because he said automatic locking, and that is a feature on a lot of cars, where the doors automatically lock when you start driving.
cars peaked 5-10 years ago when tech had been added to all the convenient things (like bluetooth speaker systems and auto locking doors) but hadn’t made its way into every single feature that definitely needs to not be teched up
I still wonder what if I sleep in the car and it just starts driving itself.
Read a story about a repossession agent that had keys to the car they were repossessing, and just took it when the debtor parked and left the car for a short while. Turns out the debtor had left their baby in the back seat and the repo agent didn't notice until they'd driven the car some distance.
Ive only owned 90s tacomas since their release (1st gen tacos). It'll be a sad day when I have to move on to a more modern work partner. There may be many like it and everday less, but this'll always my fav gundam.
That feeling when you never cared where the LTT offices were because you already knew from just recognising the location from the videos.
if that dystopian car shit happens people will just outright hack there cars
It has happened, and it is happening. Did you miss the bit about Kea cars?
Car Piracy! Jailbreaking cars will be a thing.
and other people will hack your car.
It's very much like the motorcycle jacket with airbags that requires a subscription. If you don't pay, the bags won't inflate.... It was a big story at the time I think 2 years ago
@Hunter Liese I think that's where I heard about it! On the WAN show
If memory serves me well, which most of the time it doesn't, I think they talked about that motorcycle jacket on the WAN show a while ago.
Stuff like this has existed before. The bank could keep your car from starting if you didn't pay your bills, so you couldn't drive it away before they could repossess it.
At least if it gets stolen, you can just not pay. 😅
That said, i wonder how you can get support if this happens after you actually paid off the car?
Man, that's insane. If my car got stolen and I found it with someone sleeping inside, calling the cops would be the last thing on my mind. In the extremely unlikely case I even gave the thieving scumbag an opportunity to get out peacefully, if he wouldn't comply I would not feel bad in the slightest about removing him by force.
you will own nothing and you will be happy
@dustojnikhummer it’s not a conspiracy theory, it’s capitalism lol.
@VitalVampyr that's not where the quote is from, it's from the world economic forum... you're clueless
@Ronald Weasley probably a sign that is too late
Under Florida law for example this is how its written "your lender must give you an opportunity to meet at a mutually agreed-upon place to surrender the car and remove your belongings before the lender repossesses the car. If you don't do this, lenders aren't required to give you any further notice before the repossession"
In other words depending on how this is implemented and done, this could easily break the law.
@Asmosis Yup I think your clearly missing some details, that part is covered in the law "If you don't do this, lenders aren't required to give you any further notice before the repossession" So no if you don't "mutually agree", the law does not protect against repossession.
That doesnt make any sense. All i'd have to do is not "mutually agree" to a place and the cars mine to do with as i see fit. You're clearly missing some details there bud.
Imagine war starts and your car just drives away because the government needs it.
Have you guys ever thought about allowing tours for the studio? Honestly would be pretty cool if I was ever in town.
NO PLclipR WANTS TO ACTUALLY INTERACT WITH THEIR FANBOIS.
I would hope this only creates a tiered credit system, eg lower deposit or interest rate if they can remotely control the car
But I expect to be wrong
As a gen z-er, I’m extremely pissed off about corporations practices. Good f-ing luck “owning” anything
Yeah it’s bad for us
@Anivicuno corporatism would be more of a subset of capitalism, or the eventual results of capitalism without adequate anti monopolistic and anti corruption controls.
Similar but not the same
How is it scapegoating when capitalism is a necessary part of rent seeking? If not for private ownerships of capital, how can there be rent?
If you disagree, please exaplain what capitalism is then. Because you seem to have a different idea about a system whose in-built end goal is a single, giant entity owning everything.
@Robb Hays This right here. I hate scapegoating capitalism when it's corporations and politicians being in bed with one another...
If you want to know why there is a separation of church and state in the United States Constitution, it's for this same sort of reason with a massive snowball of powerful people gathering other powerful people...
the amount of damage and chaos a small bug in this system could cause...
you're right, I don't own my car.
it's holding me financially hostage
Damn that Tycan didn’t get to make any noise in Europe,or at least Eastern Europe,but that car sure do looks nice!
There’s probably some lawyer hired by Ford facepalming so hard just at the thought of the potential liability lawsuits.
I don't know about this one. While the stated purpose is a good one, I do understand why some people are concerned about it. Maybe if the hardware/software for it could be removed once the lien on the title has been removed, or something like that. Remember, if you have a lien on a car, it is not your car.
Someone needs to remind Ford that car crashes are done with the doors locked for the safety of the driver/passengers. Having the doors not lock puts everyone in the car at a much higher risk and puts that injury maybe in Fords fault. We all know things go wrong and someone's car will be turned off by mistake and it might not end well.
@JC That's never the right answer even if it is sadly true.
@JC fair. Suing hardly matters
Hackers when they get into the system and drive all the cars back at once: *evil laughter*
GPS can let them find the car to Repo but control such as a kill switch are way too dangerous... How many horror stories did OnStar create ?
You should not feel bad or apprehensive about you car or anything else you own or purchase, you have worked hard to get where you are at now and not like you went out and bought a lambo...I know there are some that will scoff at it but its there issue. I'm genuinely happy for you and your teams success
Man there really needs to be government regulation.
Since so many people obviously have issue with this, just have it repossessed, from the 2nd, 3rd late monthly payment and be done with it. This way people won't even have the use of the vehicles. Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, the trajectory of wireless access to our vehicles in the future almost seems inevitable.
I've heard of killswitch systems for cars framed as a cheaper method of repossession. Still, debtor probably needs the car to go to work, and needs to go to work to pay the car loan, so, repossessing too promptly is arguably counterproductive to getting the loan repaid.
🤣 Can't...stop...laughing...🤣 Hard for a car to drive itself away when the lug nuts aren't on there. 🤣 Do they really think people are that stupid? 🤣
With the car driving it’s self away, it’s definitely not like if you stopping paying a regular car’s installments a random person comes to your house and takes it
@Popy fair but theoretically you could just repossess without the risks associated with irritations. It's all tradeoffs.
@Riley Blair I agree but the majority of it is just irritating, which I’d say is preferable to the risk of violence during a repossession
the driving away is arguably the most understandable thing, almost everything else is at least to some degree dangerous.
This is one reason I own an old car, less unnecessary gadgetry to break/have subvert you
OMG, Linus I have a relative that woke up and she jumped into a old women's car asking for a ride because she was late for her final exam in the winter. But I doubt it was related to your relative
“You will own everything and they will be pissed” Louis Rossman
1:11 i legit died laughing at this, thats rare on YT videos these days!
That's the most Canadian story I've ever heard. Just drives intruder to destination.
This is a legitimate fear for future automotive. What about a hack to the servers that control these features. As far as updates, agreed, what is keeping manufacturers from stopping support after 10yrs? When it's not legally the manufacturers responsibility to support that vehicle or feature?
On the topic of Tesla, they get around this by using a blanket update. As an example, my model 3 has radar, but it is now disabled and uses vision only. Just like the new cars. This was conveyed to the user and does function as expected.
My point is, I hope that future auto designs around having these issues and will continue to improve what works. (Wishful thinking, but a hope)
Currently the solution being taken is having the company follow the recall process. Tesla did this in Feb 2023 and issued a recall for over 360,000 of its cars. The software was just pushed over the air but still the recall feature is a tool that can be used. Problem would be trusting the governments can 1) determine the issue is real and 2) force the auto company to issue the recall in a timely manner. If that can be done, then the recall system would be good at forcing companies to update their old software.
Not just that, but what happens when there's a clerical error and they take your car?
dont have to worry about 15 yrs still being on the road they wont last that long. gone are the days of self maintenance (im biased towards wanting it to be ending being an automotive technician) but i still drive a VERY mechanical car that i can rebuild with limited tooling
And these companies wonder why piracy is rampant... in a world where this exists hacking this is inevitable.
Hell yeah. I got to drive a Taycan 4S and sheeeeeew. That thing was SWEET.
The fact nobody will say anything is the most crazy part lol. They will still buy thoses cars and pay
3:46 exactly. There basically is no support or updates for cars. You’re stuck with what you get, for better it got worse. No wonder Apple CarPlay and Android Auto are popular, since the stock infotainment system will never be updated with features or to address bugs.
wait are tesla cool in Canada or something ? probably the last car id think of buying atm even if I was looking for an electric car.
This is why I probably won't live anywhere I can't go to work by hopping on a train or a bus
Aaaaaaand this is why I love my unconnected, non-internet enabled, 2015 Impreza.
I see a gray market growing up where you swap the computer out with a non-sanctioned version that doesn't have connectivity like this.
What they need to do is stop giving bad loans.
So, like several single player video games. Would our cars need to be always online to function at all?
People in car: It's too hot 🔥
Car companies: suffercate cause you ain't opening a window hahaha
You brought up the KIA/Hyundai hacking issue needing tons of exposure, don't forget that they were planning to charge affected users $500+ for something THEY DID WRONG
This is why I'll never buy a car that will not run on open source software, just like my computers.
Linus whipping out his wallet on stream again
Someone needs to start building a normal mechanical cars again, with no software.
6:56 He announced the location of the offices at some point?!? I knew they show in the videos like a google maps zoom in but like a youtuber could just show up to say hi without ever being given the location lol
If this gets implemented (and it will, trust me) someone's going to be hurt. If that does happen, I *firmly* believe that the blame should be laid solely at Ford's feet. Not to even mention the risk of unauthorized access into the central command and control server(s). This is a very rare instance that I think the government needs to get involved and veto this whole idea, because Ford *WILL* abuse their control.
Their lawyers and business associates have weighted up the costs of civil suits/liability of fatalities vs the increased revenue they can gain from this.
As far as i know you can't charge a corporation with murder (in the US at least) so it's simple question of economics, the same question that industries like tobacco have been answering for decades.
This is why we need to keep old cars around!!!
I have a 2010 Dacia Duster. Even if i bought a new one, it's MINE, belive me 😂
Canadians don't need uber, they are so friendly you can just hop into a stranger's car and they will happily drive you to your destination.
Damn, uncle Ted was right all along, and that is scary
Maybe the application for the patent at least is a good thing? A patent is a hurdle toward other companies to use the patented system or technology. as long as patents for annoying or bad systems stay at a single company we will still be able to go to the competition. UNLESS they decide to pay a fee to ford and also have systems like this and drive up the cost of the competitors at the same time.
honestly them turning off the ac can be great. Have something die in the heat and then sue.
Going to say what no one wants to admit: car loans and house loans are a terrible idea and should never have existed
Even if they toss on software locks, it'll be about ripping the right logic hardware out and tossing a relay box in with a button somewhere on the dash. The mechanism only cares about its' electrical needs.
It'll be an arms-race where they inconvenience service/modification, and keep worsening of their own products until they stop and lose the arms race, or fail as a business with deeply burdensome product.
Guys really thought they could slide down the slope then arbitrarily decide when to stop.
Seeing how much automotive companies lobby in every corner of every state in the US, this was a surprisingly strong case for better public transportation! Thanks, Ford, for the wake up call!
Probably wouldn't be as bad if they just prevent the car from starting, rather than disabling crucial features, right?
@Mark Tate congrats
@Tony Mercier yea, I personally wouldn't want to have to worry about that myself and I hope it doesn't become mainstream but I understand the idea of it. Few years ago I ended up getting about 3 months late on my car myself. Took a lot to climb out of that hole and I'm a few months away from paying the car off.
@Mark Tate That I don't think is a bad idea, it's not life threatening and I get why they wouldn't want people to use cars they're not paying for
That's already a thing actually. Implemented in a lot of buy here pay here vehicles these days. If you're late on your car payment, they activate the device and it prevents you from being able to start up your vehicle the next time you go to start it up.
You can count on me assuming you have insurance on your car.
7:46 An excellent choice might I add. Le Porsche Taycan is beautiful and fast
I read the title as You Won’t Rally Your Own Car 😂
I’m kind of curious if the car repossess itself, drives itself to the dealership and gets into a accident on the way would it be the dealerships problem or the owners?
At that point it would have to be legal for a car to drive itself without anybody ready to take over, so I assume we will also have the liability figured out.
At this point, I just wouldn't buy a car anymore. I'd go with a rental like Car2Go or Hertz if I need a car.
Yes, I live in a big city and have the luxury of not needing a car daily but this is pushing me even further from wanting to ever get one.
be careful, you haven't heard all the horror stories of Hertz reporting cars as stolen and having the renter's arrested a few hours after they leave the lot, or forgetting to check them in and harassing you three months later as the last person who had a vehicle that they've just lost in their system due to mismanagement? They've outright stolen cars from people who previously rented from them and tried to claim the person's personal car was a stolen rental car from them as well. Hertz is... legendary, and not for good reasons.
Me reading the title... Mm'yeah we're going that way for a while now, we won't own anything.
First of all, if I saw something along the lines of "By signing this deed you give the automobile manufacturer complete and total control of the functions of your motor vehicle and the power to do with that control anything at its discretion," on a contract, I would tear that up. Second of all, if someone I knew had their car turned off or driven away by Ford, I would say something about how the customer expected a fully functional car, and since it wasn't given to them, why should they pay for it? One thing we need soon is legislation that stops companies from abusing tech.
That’s why you should get a motorcycle ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
You've worked hard and you deserve to get yourself something you'll enjoy. I'll do the same when my ship comes in.
Prime example, my 2021 Toyota Corolla, which is still under bumper to bumper warranty, the entune software which controls updates to the car and the radio is no longer supported in the replacement software-only notifies me when I need to get an oil change. The navigation system which I paid for no longer functions because it was through the entune software specifically!
The built in WIFI hotspot only works through AT&T, and since I bought it used, it is Registered to the previous owner and will not let me set it up! Toyota says that I need to contact AT&T, and AT&T says I need to contact Toyota, so that functionality is dead.
Asking cat manufacturers to support their cars for even 3 years is a stretch these days, and add functions like Ford is suggesting is just asking for it to be exploited!
This is getting way too insane...
Honestly I think this makes it so the market will be RIPE for a car manufacture that sells "dumb" cars. There's a small market for Dumb phones now but, they suck and don't do as much. Since a car only needs to take you from point A to B. and until they ban all older cars, either by SMOG or making it hard to repair and disposable, we can just refuse to buy new cars.
it used to be cheaper to buy a new car than to fix and repair/maintain an older model. but at this point, if you can do your own repairs and maintenance, it's now cheaper to own older (more than 10 years old) cars.
This is the bright future of "You will own nothing and be happy" that the world economic forum is talking about. These companies have lost the plot.
This is why I love my paid off 2012 Honda accord. Shits gonna last me another 10 years at the very least if I take care of it. I'm not buying into all the new tech in cars. Just give me a stick shift and a radio
Anyone who's bothered by Linus buying a fancy car clearly haven't seen the size of his house, which is way more impressive IMO. I don't see anything wrong with someone spending money the made ethically on luxury items. It's not liked if LTT would be sponsored by shady companies and services you often see on PLclip, especially after they've been exposed by creators.
They're basically telling people not to buy new cars. Not that many people can do that any more anyway. 🤨
If you don’t pay for something or miss car payments it doesn’t automatically make it the dealers again. There’s contracts and a whole court process for disputes.
It's not even the dealer in the case of new cars like he's saying either. It's whatever bank financed the car that handles the repo process.
Wait, did linus buy an EV or not?